Interviews 
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| Interviews@3LC - Food | |
| Monday, 20 November 2006 | |
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Hot, Sour, Salty, Sweet
Interview with Jeffrey Alford and Naomi Duguid
travellers, cooks, photographers, and writers The day I got their first book eleven years ago, I read through it, noted the most appealing recipes, and invited friends over to try them out. Our favorite was the Georgian cheese-filled quick bread, emeruli khachapuri, and that memory of my first meal made using recipes from a cookbook has stayed with me.
They are working on their sixth cookbook, due out in Spring 2008, Beyond the Great Wall, which will focus on the periphery of China, the regions that lie outside of central China.
How have you changed, or have you changed, from your first book to the one you’re working on now? How is this reflected in your books?
J: We were just arguing that the other day. In one respect we haven’t changed. If you look at the world and you’re a person who’s interested in food, you think it’s a big puzzle. We see that our job is to resolve those pieces of the puzzle that people who are interested in food are looking at. Take for example Italy. There’s so much attention and interest there that people don’t need help understanding that piece of the puzzle.
N: So
that draws us to the roads less traveled, but it also draws us to a particular
cuisine that people don’t pay much attention to. Some people are drawn to festive food, like
what did the royal family eat? We’re at
the other end of that spectrum, looking at the food of daily life, like bread. That’s something that’s the same about us. What’s different is we know a little more
because time has passed and we also know how little we know. That comes with the territory.
What has been the most challenging cooking technique to learn?
J: Most
of the things we put in our books are quite simple, but mastering them is all
in the technique and you learn by doing it over and over. Just like my woodwork or quilting, it’s
repetition. We learn these processes by
looking and thinking how we could adapt, and occasionally take photographs that
will remind us later. We don’t use a
video camera because we want to take pictures, and if we’re filming, we’re not
shooting stills.
N: I
agree. Really with all of that baking
stuff, the fewer the ingredients the more the gesture or technique counts. I think the hardest thing to figure out was teff injera (Ethiopia) for the Flatbreads book. That was really the most ‘throw it in the
trash and start over’ kind of process. Also
a flung and folded griddle bread called murtabak
(Malaysia) from the Flatbreads book, was very
difficult. But we do more a sort of
figuring out processes and working through how to substitute for people with
modern North American kitchens. We have to transpose things made in other
circumstances, like those that are baked in a tandoor oven.
Describe the cookbook
process through testing to draft— How do
you decide on which experiences to convey? J: Our books have recipes, which is one process, and the testing process is similar to the way most people write cookbooks. We test at home, then we move from testing notes to computer and back and forth and sometimes it’s easy, sometimes it’s not. It depends on the cookbook. In some regions there’s a lot to come up with, sometimes there isn’t. And sometimes we enjoy working in those areas where there isn’t a lot of food. Our interest is really where people and food come together. Sometimes our greatest interest in food is where there isn’t enough food. N: Sometimes it’s a question of whether we have a recipe to test— what did you come across that’s new that can be a candidate to be figured out to be turned into a recipe? Then after all that, do you like what you came up with? In terms of stories and experiences, often if I’m writing a recipe even in draft before I’m testing it, I’ll write a notional “let’s say” or “let’s try this” and even afterwards, I’ll write a head note for the recipe and when I’m inside the recipe and I’m remembering a certain situation, say, when I learned about it, that turns into a story or an anecdote that could end up somewhere else in the book. The effort of thinking about food can take you to some other place. We try to think about what’s important, how can we give a picture of a place or a culture. We want to make sure we have people, feeling, agriculture, landscape…
Which is the hardest
sensation to capture in words? J: I don’t know that anything seems particularly hard. Like I think we write about those sensations which were meaningful to us. We don’t worry about what we don’t write, very much. It’s very simple prose. So if I had an experience and I want to be there in my head and I want to get it down in words, it’s all equally hard to get it there. I wouldn’t say capturing a smell or a taste is hard because we don’t use a lot of descriptive words, that’s not how we write. N: We tend to deal with the more concrete, than the feeling side of it. We like to let the feelings arise in the reader. Otherwise the hardest thing to put into words is the technique… make it clear, elegant, not too much. You can make something that’s relatively easy look impossible just with the words on the page. If you go on and on you can turn someone off. I think we have a tendency in North America to over explain. That’s a balancing act.
J: Lately, I don’t want to go anywhere where I haven’t been. I’d like to go back to places where I have been, especially places where I’ve been a lot. Right now, if I got an opportunity, I’d like to go to Nepal, South India, Northern Thailand… I like the familiarity, I like seeing places over time. N: I would really like to spend some time in Ethiopia and in Iran. I’ve never been in either place. I’d like to do that sooner rather than later. But I, like Jeff, feel that it’s kind of like when you’re a kid standing in a candy store with your dime or your quarter and there’s only one candy bar you can pick. I think that anywhere I’ve been will be interesting and a pleasure to visit again.
Which comes first, the
culture or the food? What is it that
attracts you to a particular culture (and not another?) N: I would say the place and the culture. But you know it’s an artificial distinction. Not the food on its own, absolutely not. J: I’d say generally, we prefer where we’re going to have access to culture, where more happens on the street. For example, when we first started writing we ended up in France and I was miserable because I was used to Asia where we’d just leave our hotel and see how things were being done on the street and where you can participate more. We really gravitate toward places where indigenous peoples live who don’t have their own state, minority people and indigenous people.
Do you find food trends in the countries you write about in your books? J: Straight away I would say that in Thailand and India there are food trends and it’s fascinating to watch, for example, that there are tandoor ovens being used in the South of India, maybe with the rise of domestic and foreign tourism, but then it filters into upper/middle class society. And in Thailand, the poorest region’s food has always been the most popular, and now all over they are trying to fancy that food up so they can charge more for it. I think what’s incredible in North America is the TV phenomenon. Through our time in food we’ve watched this and it has seemed to spiral into the ozone. I think it’s natural that there are trends in places where people have enough to eat. N: …and where people can buy things. There are trends in Indian food like pizza parlors and coffee is a big trend in Bombay, where there are all these little coffee shops, premium coffees. J: We’re always interested in stepping back and seeing people’s relationship with food. People cook less now than they cooked at home 20 years ago. We love visiting supermarkets and seeing what people take home. I visited my parents in California and went to the supermarket with them and noticed that in the supermarkets the food was almost all take away. When we first started writing people were so interested in Italian food, and Creole, and now it’s Spain.
What could we (in the U.S. and Canada) learn from the food
culture of the countries you travel in, and is there anything in the
U.S./Canada that they can learn from us? J: I grew up in Wyoming at 7000 feet and we had very little food there. Alice Waters was over in Berkeley saying we should all have gardens on the rooftop. I was like, “Yeah you live in San Francisco!!! You don’t live in Laramie, Wyoming!” Everybody can learn from looking at other people’s food. Anytime you see other people’s relationships with food it makes you reflect on your own relationships with food.
N: But the other thing that we can learn
from anybody, not just in other countries outside North America, is to cook more and know more
about food and where it comes from. Even
if you go to north of Toronto, to farm country, you can see that people cook
more and know more about the food they are preparing and eating. When you get into the city and there’s enough
money and choice, people can be detached from season and choice. They can choose Greek, Pugliese, Catalan… People can also learn to have respect for
ingredients and know the process of what they’re eating. So how do you learn that? By making it yourself. And by attentiveness and respect. Which aspect of your travel brings back the strongest sensory recall? A smell, a taste, an image, an object? J: I think generally anything that really happens, where we get emotionally involved. It’s pretty random.
N: Yeah, there’s a general thing that a
smell could whisk us to other places. It
could be a particular encounter, it could be a trick with light or a
color. The quickest thing to come from
the subconscious is the smell. But even
the smallest visual that’s an image, and that can take you somewhere… With a smell, sure, you can be surprised into
remembering something.
What motivates you? J: I think long ago when we met and we wanted to work, what motivated us was that we wanted to have a family and we wanted to be able to include our kids in what we did, and we wanted to be able to spend time in other places and be able to make it a job. N: But the first thing I’d say is curiosity about the world. The first thing. And that means we want to be able to go and see how things work and put ourselves in other places and then like Jeff said we want our kids to be a part of it. J+N: And fun! J: And whether it’s fun from learning something new, or whatever. When you’re having fun, it’s usually a good indication that something good is going on. Writing is fun. We love photography, we never went to school for photography, we don’t want to go to school for it. We don’t want voices in our head telling us what is right and what is wrong.
Which design style/icon best describes your work? What was it ten years ago? What would you like it to be in five years? If you think in terms of an object, I guess I’d say a patchwork quilt. A crazy quilt so it’s got unpredictability. Flourishes and embroideries. Hopefully it’s beautiful and it’s comfortable. I think it would probably be the same in five years, and was the same ten years ago. First thing you notice in a restaurant? N: If it’s a Thai restaurant, whether or not there’s the smell of Jasmine rice cooking. If not, I leave. J: If it’s casual or not. If it’s warm and welcoming and normal, ok. No pretension. Eating what food brings back the best memories and why? N: Impossible. It’s just impossible. Because there are too many good memories, I can’t put a category on them. J: We really like noodles made by hand. Last piece of art you fell in love with? N: I just saw a wonderful installation piece call Fog in Toronto by Japanese artist Fujiko Nakaya. J: For me, our neighbors’ garden in the country. They built a garden in an old barn foundation. It’s an English-style garden. It is white and lavender and stone... George Maier is the gardener, up in Grey county.
N: Are you kidding?? That’s what we live off Trash found in the alley! Oh that’s hard… We have an extraordinary dresser Jeff found in the alley that’s from 1895. J: We have about 300 quilts, 19th century quilts. We find them everywhere. N: The Brimfield flea market in Massachusetts is a great place for finds. We’re always looking for something to repair. A friend brought us some quilts that her friend found in the house she’d bought and she was going to throw them away. Our friend was like, “Oh, I know someone who would love to have these!” No home is complete without… N: I would say without a rug. When I was a student and moved I would always put my rug on the floor. A Persian rug. J: A quilt. I have a quilt that my mother made for me. We have quilts on the walls, we have a lot of quilts hanging. I can see four from where I am sitting now. It’s like our artwork, and we alternate them regularly to change up. You’ll always pick up the magazine if ________________ is on the cover. N: the words New Yorker or Harper’s is on there and it doesn’t matter what’s on the cover! J: I never see the things I’d like to see on a cover of a magazine! Maybe a rundown farm…??
N: I can only think that it’s probably strong women I find intriguing, how they sort of managed. People like Germaine Greer, author of The Female Eunuch. She’s a puzzle and an interesting woman. J: I have an aversion to celebrities. The notion I’m not adverse to. But I guess I’d say I’m intrigued by the King of Thailand. ______________________. Never leave home without it. N: Journal and the pens you like to work with, a camera with the lens you love, a passport, and money J: I agree.
Photo credits:
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